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Post by cetellic on Dec 15, 2008 9:08:16 GMT -5
Now you're trying to compare lessons learned in street fighter to lessons learned in football? Sheesh dude. I'm not comparing lessons. I was taking what you said about my Street Fighter-Graal relation, which you called an idiot move, and letting you know you pulled a Football-Debate relation. If you support applying experimentation to Graal is dumb only becuase Street Fighter is a 2D fighter (thus different from Graal), then trying to apply something from football to debate is equally dumb. Well until something interesting can occupy the time of the people while they're online, nothing will bring back interest to the server. Hosting Mr. Actionpack works well to raise the playercount, but gets dull to host everytime... looks like I'll just host Mr. Creative to get things rollin till that gets boring...
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Post by gladius on Dec 15, 2008 9:50:44 GMT -5
As I've said before, IMO the SF example doesn't work well since SF is 1v1 fights and CTF is 4v4 + (hopefully), so experimentation in each case is different. Now, football is a team game like CTF is, so it would work better in that example. But that isn't what the football reference was used for. I recall you saying "why continue?" about debates ongoing, so I responded with a statement to the effect of: "you finish the drill, like in football". IMO you can take the "finish" part of the lesson and apply it to many applications in life. You finish what you start, no? As far as I can tell, "finish" applied more to the situation than street fighter did, which is why it can be applied and SF shouldn't be.
Outside of events.
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Post by cetellic on Dec 15, 2008 10:12:39 GMT -5
You took "finish" part of the lesson and applied it here.
I took experimentation and applied it to Graal in the same fashion:
In Street Fighter Sagat was originally a mid-tier character, but when they figured out old sagat can spam his projectile at a rate nearly impossible to counteract they boosted him up to top tier if I'm right. It took someone who was willing to pick sagat in the first place, and then mess around a bit and go "OMG SAGAT'S PROJECTILE SPAM IS GODLY!!!! WHO WOULD'VE THOUGHT?!?!"
In Smash bros Brawl same thing, Metaknight sucked balls, I used to think I could beat any metaknight. But after experimenting and testing stuff Metaknight players learned new possibilities which enhanced their game. Fighting good metaknights back in the day and fighting good metaknights now is like fighting two different characters.
For Classic CTF as an example, nobody knew laggers raped on CTF Sumo until we were put against a lagger and figured out "okay so they're harder to knock into water, Sumo defense ain't wall style so they can get past us easier", through testing and observation as we played against them.
It's no duh that Street Fighter would be effected different then graal. Both metagames are enhanced... but "OMG THAT WORKS GENIUSLY" can happen more often due to the Graal game-engine having much more room for freedom and being easier to understand then the street fighter game-engine... that's all I was saying and you pulled this "OMG STREET FIGHTER AND GRAAL ARE LIKE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT!!! EXPERIMENTATION WON'T WORK FOR GRAAL JUST CAUSE IT WORKS FOR STREET FIGHTER!!! NO WAI!!! I DON'T BELIEVE IT!!!!!!" kinda thing...
Fun addictive mini games could actually be pretty easy to make, such as the arrow thing that used to be at the carnival south of MOD fort...
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Post by gladius on Dec 15, 2008 10:55:14 GMT -5
You make a good point, but I find a few flaws:
It was my impression that "evolution of the metagame" involved people getting better. Clearly you can get better with "mid-tier" players by using them over and over again and finding little tips and tricks to wtfpwn people. You can use them to wtfpwn low tier, middle tier, and occasionally high tier people. The thing about your ctf comparison is that adding laggers to ctf sumo wasn't really "experimenting". They just joined the game and found out their lag abilities gave them an edge in many situations. If you chose to play as Sagat, you were probably going to commit to getting better with him when you found that he had some abilities. Laggers could be "experimenting" by playing sumo more and more and finding new things to do with their "abilities", but adding laggers to ctf sumo isn't an "experiment" per say.
Now, defenders had to "experiment" with new techniques to defeat these laggers. But the thing is, the techniques you use to beat laggers aren't the techniques you use to beat non-laggers. With Sagat, I assume (I've never really played) that you could use the same group of techniques/abilities to defeat most opponents, though some would work better than others against certain enemies. Defending against laggers and defending against real players is pretty different, so I find a difference there if my assumption is correct.
I was also under the impression that "experimentation" meant picking a pathetic team to fight a stacked team. The pathetic team was most likely going to get owned, and thus not improve their skills. Now I've been in (too) many ctf games, and I've found that I've gotten better by playing in close games against really tough teams over and over. I've also found that I've had to use all my skills, but not necessarily have gotten better, when I've played on poo teams against really good teams. The point is, I've found you get better by playing and winning close games between two evenly matched teams; not by playing on bad teams and struggling to do much of anything against a good team.
Well bowling and the MGS (mini game system) could qualify as mini games, but they don't keep people occupied in between events. I was thinking more of a guild-war system that would actually encourage guilds to fight b/c it would offer a worthwhile reward and an actually way to "win" a war other than having the last person not log off or stop fighting.
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Post by Gotenks on Dec 15, 2008 11:59:20 GMT -5
orly should i even bpther to read the past half page?
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Post by gladius on Dec 15, 2008 13:49:31 GMT -5
It's a free country.
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Post by MysticX2X on Dec 15, 2008 16:26:25 GMT -5
bpther
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Post by Gotenks on Dec 15, 2008 17:20:09 GMT -5
does it bpther you mystic? its called a typo... dont bpther making a reply about it seeing as you bpther to say i spam these forums
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Post by cetellic on Dec 15, 2008 22:01:42 GMT -5
CTF Sumo Bit) Experimenting wasn't just "adding laggers to CTF sumo". After the fifth time of trying to knock a lagger into the water and failing you must've figured out "well everytime I hit him he's just gunna forward recoil...". You had to of encountered it plently of times and thus been able to test that hypothesis and then figure out it's fact or fiction - The process of experimenting.
Street Fighter) You will get better with a character by continuing to play or use them, but should you pick the newer Sagat (who's projectile spam has been fixed) he's pretty much mid-tier again. Should you pick the older Sagat and not projectile spam you're essentially using a mid-tier, you will be out-optioned by players using top tiers cause Sagat originally can't counter their tactics very well, it won't even be close. Use projectile spam and now they have a reason to be afraid to use their tactics, they have to find openings to pull them off and hope they land their hits to avoid the spam. This makes the matchup is much more even.
Defending Laggers vs. Defending Normal Players) Your right, Sagat is very one deminsional since there was one programming mistake which got him to be as useful as he is, so that was his whole game plan. In CTF defending is just landing hits on the offenders, sending them back to their spawn points by any means necessary. Against laggers you have to predict, actually hitting a lagger is different because of it's timing, but if you understand the timing your just apply the timing to your original tactic and there you go, nothing really changes much. It's probably a learning curve if you don't already spar and is already used to predicting movements, but essentially you're doing the same thing by different means.
The Impression of Experimentation) Why did I pick sucky teams in general? To experiment. To see how I would handle myself in bad situations "THEY GOT FLAG AT 6 HP? DON'T WORRY WE'LL HUNT EM DOWN EZ!!", I already can do just fine with teammates rapin. But what if I'm on a sucky team who's like "SCREW YOU FAGGOT!!! WE CAN'T HUNT DOWN 3 HP ARE YOU INSANE?!?!", I'm not going to do as well, however if I could win anyway I'd definitely have a 1-up and it'd be a pretty good brain teaser figuring out how to win right? Oh yes... You do misunderstand though - picking bad teams enabled me to experiment, picking bad teams was not experimenting in itself.
Close even matches vs. BLOW OUTS) You are right when you say you can improve by playing even matches. But most of my improvement comes from uneven matches, or times when I get utterly destroyed. I like to lose and welcome opprotunities to lose. Had I not fought uneven matches in CTF and desperately tried to pull comebacks I probably wouldn't have been as good as I was. I remember sparring Exodus at Supernicks when I was a scrub, he mopped the floor with me easy, but I eventually rised to the top. It works like that in every game to me, seek the strongest, go against them, learn from it.
Classic Interest) Bowling and MGS are one deminsional games imo. Their rule-designs just aren't meant to be addicting. The current guild-war-system is weird. Cause on some level it works, but that lack of win-lose conditions make it pointless. Classic needs competitive spirit!!!
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Post by gladius on Dec 16, 2008 0:18:13 GMT -5
Sumo: The only thing I can think someone would "experiment" with against laggers is tactics to use against them. Sadly some people are still experimenting...or just failing; it's hard to tell.
SF: Thanks for the lesson.
Def: It's not like you don't have to predict where a non-lagger attacker will go. The big difference is that you can see him while he's doing it, unlike with a lagger. Your reaction time with laggers is slowed down because your eyes tell your brain that they are in spot X when they are actually in spot X+2 (example) so you can try to predict their moves but there are so many more options for them to use. I'd go into more detail but I don't think you want to read a novel. Also with laggers in sumo, you can predict all you want but if they recoil forward it won't help you all the time. With nonlaggers, you can move around them and hit them into the water. Laggers...you just got to keep in front of them and hope someone can help you.
Exp: Ok, so...in your example of your team needing to hunt someone on 6 hp: what would the difference be if you had a mid-tier player and a low-tier player? Would your actions change based on what your teamates skill level was?
Close: You like to lose? Well you sir are definately different. I find that trying my hardest in clutch situations in a 6-5 game improves my skills more than trying my hardest on a struggling team in 2-6 game. As any football coach will tell you, you learn the most about yourself and get better from the close wins/loses. If you learn/get better differently then oh well. Whatever floats your boat I guess.
Classic: REPRESENT!
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Post by cetellic on Dec 16, 2008 0:41:01 GMT -5
Sumo: I've played against Thor a bunch of times and figured out a reasonable way of defending against it in sumo, now he doesn't lag anymore so I guess the skill is useful against Gotenks+Death.
Def: Yeah you can't see them so you predict where they are. But all that is the same tactics with varied effectiveness right? Since blocking works with non-laggers, I've knocked laggers into the water plently of times and had non-laggers forward recoil, ect. ect. ect. it takes a bit of getting used to but once you got it you got it.
Exp: Well if I had flag and they're like "WE CAN'T GET EM!!" that means I'ma need to buff up my dodging skills so I can live long enough to score. If my teammates can pwn the guy quickly then I don't need to be all that good, there won't be a demand for me to have incredible dodging skills so I won't be given the opprotunity to buff em up.
Close: Close games are fun and exciting, but they're more of the matches I'm preparing for by training against tougher opponents. I don't want too many close matches while at the same time I don't want them to be non-existant. If you know how to take a loss and use it to your advantage then getting creamed and correcting your mistakes can work wonders.
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Post by gladius on Dec 16, 2008 8:24:38 GMT -5
Sumo: He doesn't lag like he used to, but he still has some recoil and reach. Gotenks and Death lag maybe worse than thor did, but they can't use it like he did.
Def: Non-laggers can forward recoil occasionally, but I think that might be due to HD + if you hit them on the tail end when they cross by you. I'm not sure and I'd have to test this (an experiment!) but obviously both sides can do it. However laggers seem to do it more often and thus give defenders more problems. Still, the tactics for fighting both are a bit different.
Exp: True there wouldn't be as much pressure on you if you had a good hunter, but I wouldn't leave it to chance. You still have to use all your skills to stay alive, you just might have to live longer with a low-tier hunter.
Close: Your last sentance: It's a benefit to lose a close game then lose a lop-sided game?
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Post by Gotenks on Dec 16, 2008 14:16:01 GMT -5
omg this is so fun to read... MORE! MORE!
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Post by Gotenks on Dec 16, 2008 14:20:33 GMT -5
Exp: True there wouldn't be as much pressure on you if you had a good hunter, but I wouldn't leave it to chance. You still have to use all your skills to stay alive, you just might have to live longer with a low-tier hunter. My skills include lag? and Mystic spamming 'you suck' all game lag doesnt come with skills you cant even try to get better depending on how bad your lag is all i do is randomly run around and slash some times it works sometimes it doesnt so yeah mystic i suck now you can stop spamming it all game every game point is that lag helps you get the flag but you cant run for poo because on other peoples screens your 2-3 tiles behind where you are so reallyit cancels it out... classic is competitive..... when ctf is hosted (unless you have a sabotager) btw 5 gold stars > 5 blue stars
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Post by gladius on Dec 16, 2008 20:48:04 GMT -5
You make it sound so simple.
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