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Post by cetellic on Oct 5, 2008 15:38:26 GMT -5
No one's forcing anyone to play.
Fighting shadows is apart of the game, whether they help you or not.
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Post by gladius on Oct 5, 2008 15:42:56 GMT -5
It shouldn't be allowed though
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Post by cetellic on Oct 5, 2008 16:33:28 GMT -5
You're trying to take us into a needless circle - the argument "it shouldn't be allowed" has already been refuted as I've explained to you why Oni breaking away with the flag is fair.
If it shadow-gameplay shouldn't be allowed then anyone with more then 50ms shouldn't be allowed.
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Post by gladius on Oct 5, 2008 17:25:54 GMT -5
Not everyone over 50 ms can shadow play like in this clip.
The fact is you believe it is fair because people can change their tactics to try and stop these laggers/shadowers.
But why must we pitch differently to barry bonds just b/c he has a steroid edge?
We should pitch differently to someone because of their skill, not because of some cheap advantage they have over the rest of us.
Same applies to ctf.
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Post by cetellic on Oct 5, 2008 21:43:06 GMT -5
But why must we pitch differently to barry bonds just b/c he has a steroid edge? Because if pitching to him differently increases your chances of winning then by all means pitch differently. Think about all that time I sucked, I was sitting there wussbagging because I had 500ms instead of 50ms, reminding myself "this could be so much easier with 50ms" and "I wouldn't of gotten hit if I didn't lag". When I got tired of kicking around on the floor, accepted the facts, how they effected me, and played along side that knowledge I started winning again. No one cares if 500ms was my prime reason for losing, I lost - there's nothing more to it, and I must play better should I want to win. It's the same thing, players sit there fussin about spike laggers "OMG DID YOU SEE THAT HE WALKED THROUGH ME!!", no one cares, you're losing and you must play better should you want to win.
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Post by gladius on Oct 6, 2008 7:19:50 GMT -5
Well you can't play better if no matter what you do, you always seem to fail b/c you can't shadow hunt/defend.
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Post by cetellic on Oct 6, 2008 12:27:24 GMT -5
That applied to me aswell, I thought I couldn't play better because no matter what I did I always seemed to be held back by the 500ms.
As I've been saying from the get go it's all in your head, if you think something is unfair then you're not going to be motivated to play, and it'll run amok.
Don't only think about spike laggers - Think about auras. Think about Gotenks as captain. Think about Deo pissed when items were on in CTF Indoor2
The moment you see it as just a part of the game you can start to actually play amongst it, experiment around a bit to understand the exacts of what you were once fussin over, and from that understanding you can devise counters.
All the unfair stuff seems completely unstoppable at first, but eventually you learn it's not as bad as you think. Incapability to learn makes you a bad player, bad players should be at higher risk to lose.
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Post by gladius on Oct 6, 2008 12:35:01 GMT -5
Bad players are determined by skill, not by outside factors.
Even jade scores lag goals (as evident on the 10-0 flaw her team put on mystic with jade scoring 6-8 of the goals, most of them lagged) but that doesn't mean she's a good player.
And it doesn't mean the entire team facing her were bad players. It just means they did all they could to stop the unbearable lag jade had and still couldn't over half a dozen times.
Auras piss me off. Not only can I not exaclty see where a person is (relates to spike laggers and their "shadow" effect) when defending against them, I can't always tell when I hit them, if I even hit them at all. Sometimes when I do hit them, I am unable to see their hp. If they're actually at 1 hp and I don't know this b/c aura is blocking the view, I'm going to kill them when I probably shouldn't.
We've already discussed the gotenks as captain situation and most people came to the conclusion that gotenks shouldn't be captain again cause he ****ed over that game with his bad picking.
A lot of people get pissed over items. Personally I prefer them to be off in all modes but future.
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Post by cetellic on Oct 6, 2008 13:46:28 GMT -5
Bad players are determined by skill, not by outside factors. Many people took note of players like Shimmy because they yell alot, I take note of Oni and Mighty fighting eachother. Those elements do not effect skill, but do effect them negatively. Even jade scores lag goals (as evident on the 10-0 flaw her team put on mystic with jade scoring 6-8 of the goals, most of them lagged) but that doesn't mean she's a good player. The lag makes her good just like the lag makes me suck, she's good because she lacks a counter. It doesn't mean she's good without the lag, but she's still good - useful for winning. If everyone figured out how to counter Jade then she'd suck. And it doesn't mean the entire team facing her were bad players. It just means they did all they could to stop the unbearable lag jade had and still couldn't over half a dozen times. They couldn't stop her, so they're not a reasonable counter against Jade's lag, poor players are players who cannot counter what's being thrown at them. If you can counter everything else but Jade's lag, then you are a sucky player when Jade is lagging. Auras piss me off. Not only can I not exaclty see where a person is (relates to spike laggers and their "shadow" effect) when defending against them, I can't always tell when I hit them, if I even hit them at all. Sometimes when I do hit them, I am unable to see their hp. If they're actually at 1 hp and I don't know this b/c aura is blocking the view, I'm going to kill them when I probably shouldn't. Auras are apparently a pretty good NPC. Sounds like the game of CTF is going to get a bit more in depth while NPCs are on. We've already discussed the gotenks as captain situation and most people came to the conclusion that gotenks shouldn't be captain again cause he ****ed over that game with his bad picking. They're all poor sports then, and should be at high risk of losing when Gotenks captains and picks them. A lot of people get pissed over items. Personally I prefer them to be off in all modes but future. Personally I prefer modes other then Indoor1, doesn't mean I don't suck at it. One time I was expecting items to be on in indoor2 and they weren't, I hissy fitted costing us a couple of goals. Would you call that good playing? Or is the fact that I eventually accepted items were off, and played by the rules thrown at me for a comeback victory good playing?
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Post by gladius on Oct 6, 2008 15:19:47 GMT -5
Going from the bottom up. You have no control over npcs being allowed or not. Items aren't generally allowed except in future. The fact you were hissy fitting didn't mean you don't have skill and doesn't mean you aren't a good player. It just means you are being too emotional about graal. How can you call someone a poor sport when they just want a fair chance at being on even teams? Auras make me lag which makes me worse One player shouldn't be able to thrash a defense like that especially when they aren't using skill. The fact is jade has no skills whatsoever, has little concept of teamwork, and unless she lags she isn't worth picking as a general rule. If everyone figured out a counter for thor's reach he'd stop costing me goals too. The fact is some things cannot seemingly be avoided. Some things can, such as lag. Don't let em lag or don't let em play. First off, stfu and play. Second off, yelling/typing during games is detrimental to the team, but doesn't effect overall skill. It certainly doesn't help the team one beat. But skill is skill. Yelling/typing shoudn't happen but sadly it does.
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Post by cetellic on Oct 6, 2008 17:08:12 GMT -5
You have no control over npcs being allowed or not. Items aren't generally allowed except in future. The fact you were hissy fitting didn't mean you don't have skill and doesn't mean you aren't a good player. It just means you are being too emotional about graal. I said nothing about me being a good player or having skill. Nor anything about whether I have control over items or not. I asked was me hissy fitting good playing or not? How can you call someone a poor sport when they just want a fair chance at being on even teams? You can be a poor sport about something even if you feel warranted to complain about it. Auras make me lag which makes me worse Auras make me slow down aswell, but I'm still effective when my opponents pull them out. One player shouldn't be able to thrash a defense like that especially when they aren't using skill. The fact is jade has no skills whatsoever, has little concept of teamwork, and unless she lags she isn't worth picking as a general rule. Competitive games do not award players with the most skill, but the ones who play to win. If Jade is lagging you must adapt to it, if not Jade will be rewarded for your mishaps - regardless of how much skill it takes her to lag. If everyone figured out a counter for thor's reach he'd stop costing me goals too. The fact is some things cannot seemingly be avoided. Some things can, such as lag. Don't let em lag or don't let em play. You're throwing us for a loop. Explain why lag is unfair and shouldn't be allowed. First off, stfu and play. Second off, yelling/typing during games is detrimental to the team, but doesn't effect overall skill. It certainly doesn't help the team one beat. But skill is skill. Yelling/typing shoudn't happen but sadly it does. You say Jade has no skill and no teamwork as reasons why she's a poor player, but fighting with one another is bad teamwork. Throwing hissy fits when you could be helping is bad teamwork. Another pointless debate, each point heavily stacked in my favor as usual. So how long are you trying to stay on life support?
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Post by gladius on Oct 6, 2008 18:02:30 GMT -5
Bottom up again.
I may be prehistoric but I don't need life support like your folks do clel. Jade doesn't have any skill whatsoever clel and most people know this. She has no teamwork in the sense that she always goes directly for the flagspawn and gets the flag no matter what her hp is. If her teamate grabs the flag, she will continue to stand at the flag and not help the teamate excape, even if they have high hp.
How about you explain why lag is fair? Your point about "well it can be countered by good players so it's fair" isn't very good. You failed against gotenks. Thor failed against oni. I'm fairly sure both of you are good players. The fact is clel, they have an advantage the rest of do not have. This is why kevin wasn't allowed to use his trident or other unreleased npcs in ctf since it gave him an unfair edge. You say that we can combat laggers still so they should be allowed? Ok. That's like saying "well we can still block shawn merriman even though he is on the juice (he was suspended 4 games last year I believe) so it's all good." What happens? He has like 15 sacks that season. He has an unfair edge and just because you can occasionally stop him doesn't mean it's fair.
And yet the players with the most skill are usually the ones who try hardest to win. The players who suck usually quit/leave since they have the least to lose. If jade is lagging badly enough, no matter what you do she is going to get the flag and get out. There is only so much you can do. Like yesterday in ctf future where you had to play on Xiahou. Kill was apparently uploading on youtube so he was lagging MASSIVELY. For example, I had just cleared the base of enemy hunters, and lak was standing on the flag spawn (w/ the flag) waiting for the two hunters to kill the enemy flag runner. No one was coming at us. Suddenly kill appears next to lakuta and kills him. Wtf mate? We couldn't see him at all, and suddenly he kills our flag carrier and possibly led to a score for the other team. Now how fair is that?
Well congrats cause aurus make me less effective and make the enemy more effective.
So complaining about a bad call by a referee is being a bad sport? You just want a fair chance to win the game with your skills. You don't want outside forces (lag, reffs, weather, etc.) deciding the game for you.
Correction you said "I don't suck at it." which clearly talks about your skill. You said you were hissy fitting about items, which prompted me to say you don't have control over items, because you don't. If you aren't hosting, you don't make the decisions. Don't bitch about no items when the gc never said there would be and while your team needs you and your sword. Personally it pisses me off when I was racing to get to the flag before laura could score, someone laid a bomb wall which blocked both of us, it exploded and I was knocked backwards while laura walked right through the explosion for the score. Items generally annoy me because not everyone seems effected by them like I am (maybe I just have a larger hit box...or maybe they have a smaller one, idk).
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Post by clayman on Oct 6, 2008 23:55:59 GMT -5
Does this thread deal with tieing your shoe laces
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Post by cetellic on Oct 7, 2008 0:37:10 GMT -5
Alright you know what, you suck so much ass at debating I don't even feel entitled to be civil about this crap anymore.
1.The point is not to try convincing me Jade has no skill, good goin fuktard.
2.How did I fail against Gotenks? My team won that match and I was on D. So I must've stopped him right? Hey Thor was on my team and he stopped Gotenks aswell right? Dude you suck ass, and it aint female ass either.
3.Kevin's NPC is unreleased to the public, developers using unreleased NPCs in events... doesn't sound like it has to have an advantage in order for it to be illegal does it you dino dummy?!
4.Kill was getting raped in that Future, we scored tons because he was getting raped. How is that an disadvantage to us when he was hurting his own team? Seriously if you don't know what you're talking about stfu, you're wrong I'm right g-t-f-over it.
5.Being a bad sport... something doesn't go your way, you outrageously bitch about it. There's my definition. Ya happy yet?
6.I was speaking about Indoor1 when I mentioned I sucked at it, you can suck for more reasons then lack of skill firstly, secondly there was a period, and then I went on talking about Indoor2 and items. The fact that you somehow connected those two sentences... bah this is straight up torture... it'd be a field day actually if I enjoyed pwnin little faggots in debates.
7.You don't even know the situation why are you telling me not to bitch? why are you acting like the GC never said anything about items like you were there or something? Just stupid I swear. I SAID I WAS EXPECTING ITEMS FFS!!! OBVIOUSLY SOMETHING HAPPENED BEFORE I GOT THERE THAT CHIMED "Hey items should be on"... seriously fuk off.
8.You hissy fitted about Gotenks being captain, which prompts me to say you have no control over if he's captain or not. I can play that crap too, you have no control over what items are on so good luck with auras, you have no control over what ping rate other players have so bend over and let those spike laggers spike their penises up your ass, and I don't want to hear any bitchin either, else they'll plug your mouth up good... of course you'd like that.
9.No one gives two poos what your wussy ass gets annoyed by, stfu and don't play if items are on.
10."One time I was expecting items to be on in indoor2 and they weren't, I hissy fitted costing us a couple of goals. Would you call that good playing? Or is the fact that I eventually accepted items were off, and played by the rules thrown at me for a comeback victory good playing?"
Bitch don't give me five fuxin paragraphs, answer the damn question then gtfo. FIVE ****ING PARAGRAPHS OF LIFE SUPPORT which starts with "I may be prehistoric but I don't need life support like your folks do clel.", bitches like you should be put on leashes, where your master at?
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Post by cetellic on Oct 7, 2008 0:52:05 GMT -5
So lets see...
Mystic raped in the private boards? Check!
Gladius raped in the debate? Check!
Thanks for playin guys, but I think I've squeezed all the entertainment value I could out of this ;D of course if you can keep it goin we'll rock till the end of dawn!
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