|
The HD.
Jan 28, 2009 21:30:37 GMT -5
Post by cetellic on Jan 28, 2009 21:30:37 GMT -5
At least the last HD would record a higher % of hits From my standpoint when it comes to the original HD - alot of the hits I took were unreasonable, and severely limited my options while sparring or playing CTF. If another player got close enough they were guaranteed a hit regardless of what I did. This HD - each and every hit I take feels fair, when you get hit you really can't argue with what happened on the screen. The same may not be true when you're the one doing the hunting, which is now a bit more aggravating (cause trapping people doesn't really guarantee a hit anymore) but I'll gladly take the trade, other people may not and that's fine, but as someone with 500ms I enjoy this one better.
|
|
|
The HD.
Jan 28, 2009 22:29:04 GMT -5
Post by triptelvecho on Jan 28, 2009 22:29:04 GMT -5
!!!!IMPORTANT!!!! Keep in mind the difference between Server Side, and Client Side HD. Anything with Client side the hits will ALWAYS be different depending on who you spar. People with cable connections like myself and Clel will be much easier to hit because when u swing at our character...thats where we actually are and that hit registers. While sparring a 56k'er like Death its a hit and miss...once you find out how many second of lag he has it becomes just as easy to hit him, if not easier. Tho it does feel like the hit box is rather small, and the blink needs to be changed for combo possibilities. Imo UN has the perfect blink time and recoil. I agree with everyone here. People are not satisfied with the HD. Big deal, this is a hit and miss subject. It sucks to work so hard on something and it not turn out how you pictured. Thats rough believe me i know. I tested and trialed the sh/it out of HD's with master storm. You guys realise HD is very complex right? Its not a 1 day thing? The little i know is combining the Hit Box (basically what fraction of a tile your hits count from), with your recoil in tiles, and "blink" aka unable to be damaged time. Anyways....wish i could be more help
|
|
|
The HD.
Jan 28, 2009 23:37:54 GMT -5
Post by Thor on Jan 28, 2009 23:37:54 GMT -5
If i was the only person who was satisfied with this new HD...... i wouldn't have released it, i spent hours testing this with all types of sparrers, laggers, non laggers, udp, non udp, Brits, Yanks, aliens, i invited people who fancy themself as good sparrers from other servers to test and give their opinions and then made it possible to use publicly aswell as a GC Tool.
The Bottom line is simple, it was never intended to be easy to use for anybody, it was intended to be fair, yes lag might make it harder to hit some people, but it works both ways, and ofcourse will take time to adjust to, even for myself, in releasing this HD i have potentially sacrificed my own chances of sparring success.
Anybody who believes that this is causing players to avoid logging on is deluded, playercount had slumped well before the release, the exact day of it (Christmas Day) saw playercount at no than more 5 players, if anything playercount has (albeit slightly) increased over the last week or 2, but it was never intended to cause a drastic increase in playercount anyway, but a change for the better in the long run. It was arguably the fault of the serverside HD which saw average playercount half in size in 2005, any half decent sparrer/pk from another server whether you'd like them to stay or not would log off in disgust at the HD.
Another fact is that even the Default built-in HD has its flaws, it's not 100% Clientside, the manoevarability and ability to combo/be combo'd is inconsistant, and it gets hacked + cheated more easily. Having said that, if it were an option to simply port it into the server, or start again from scratch with it, i'd probably do so, but neither method is an option, unless somebody wants to pay/waste money towards a totally seperate Dev server to the one Storm uses for his own custom systems he visions being built up from scratch itself?
|
|
|
The HD.
Jan 28, 2009 23:44:08 GMT -5
Post by gladius on Jan 28, 2009 23:44:08 GMT -5
You did what you could do with what you had. That's all anyone could ask. Granted not everyone is happy with it, but beggars can't be choosers now can they?
|
|
Kevin
Full Member
Posts: 157
|
The HD.
Jan 29, 2009 1:35:54 GMT -5
Post by Kevin on Jan 29, 2009 1:35:54 GMT -5
if using a clientside HD is all of a sudden acceptable 4 years down the line, why not just use default
|
|
|
The HD.
Jan 29, 2009 2:30:17 GMT -5
Post by Thor on Jan 29, 2009 2:30:17 GMT -5
if using a clientside HD is all of a sudden acceptable 4 years down the line, why not just use default if it were an option to simply port it into the server, or start again from scratch with it, i'd probably do so, but neither method is an option, unless somebody wants to pay/waste money towards a totally seperate Dev server to the one Storm uses for his own custom systems he visions being built up from scratch itself?
|
|
|
The HD.
Jan 29, 2009 9:36:13 GMT -5
Post by MysticX2X on Jan 29, 2009 9:36:13 GMT -5
Actually, i never liked serverside HD either. But i can see why most of the europeans, particularly Kill, are mad serverside was removed due to their advantages. I don't like both of them particularly, but lag will always screw someone over with every HD, so i don't know what HD will be right though i think default is currently the best one to use.
Just a theory.
|
|
|
The HD.
Jan 29, 2009 20:35:43 GMT -5
Post by gladius on Jan 29, 2009 20:35:43 GMT -5
Most of that stuff is far beyond my knowledge so I won't even bother trying to comment.
|
|
|
The HD.
Jan 29, 2009 20:37:54 GMT -5
Post by Rufus on Jan 29, 2009 20:37:54 GMT -5
The Bottom line is simple, it was never intended to be easy to use for anybody, it was intended to be fair, yes lag might make it harder to hit some people, but it works both ways, and ofcourse will take time to adjust to, even for myself, in releasing this HD i have potentially sacrificed my own chances of sparring success. The point of serverside hit detection was to ensure that the hit detection was secure and that laggers did not gain an unfair advantage like they do with clientside hit detection. It is very contradicting to say that this new hit detection was an attempt at fairness and then try to justify how it badly responds to laggers, because they are given a huge advantage with not being able to be hit and all. I don't understand how it "works both ways" either, I mean what ways? There's no down side to not lagging yourself now, you can't be hit and in events such as CTF this places you at a huge advantage. It's not a case of adjusting, laggers simply cannot be hit unless they are running towards you and even then, who the hell does that? No one. Anybody who believes that this is causing players to avoid logging on is deluded, playercount had slumped well before the release, the exact day of it (Christmas Day) saw playercount at no than more 5 players, if anything playercount has (albeit slightly) increased over the last week or 2, but it was never intended to cause a drastic increase in playercount anyway, but a change for the better in the long run. Hahaha okay, I wasn't aware that you were that in touch with what the players believed. So I guess the players that I am in contact with, the regulars of Classic that are now playing other servers, didn't decide that their most played server wasn't worth logging on now because of the change in the hit detection? The regulars of Classic didn't suddenly feel a change in the events that were keeping the server alive, and this wasn't down to the hit detection? Give me a break. Your release of the hit detection was in response to players pointing out that no one even bothered with releasing any content for the winter holidays and it was pretty obvious too. It was indeed an attempt at raising the playercount, and it failed horribly. Sure the server was dying before the release but the change of the hit detection, coupled with the way it effected the gameplay in a negative light, solidifed Classic's death. It was arguably the fault of the serverside HD which saw average playercount half in size in 2005, any half decent sparrer/pk from another server whether you'd like them to stay or not would log off in disgust at the HD. Now this is just straight out bull. The average playercount did not drop "half in size" in 2005, because Classic was already under decline even before the NPC server came. In 2005 Classic had a pretty strong playerbase compared to now, and it even had a decent playerbase a couple of months ago although it was still declining even then. How you find this relevant at all however is beyond me, because it isn't at all. You are using pitiful excuses and reasoning. We had players 3 years ago, 2 years ago, 2007, 12 months ago, 6 months ago, and now we have next to none. You are not taking into account the actual community and because of this I'm not even sure you know what one is. The actual majority of the community stuck with Classic for quite a long time, yet you seem to think that the community are the old players that aren't returning to Graal at all. I found it hilarious that The UGCC knew about Bowling even before the players that played on the server every day, and then it all became obvious. You're not trying to cater for this community, in fact you took us for granted, and that came to the servers detriment. What you're actually doing is looking to please a small group of old players that don't play Graal and it has proved to be a complete waste of time, yet you seem to think we're the delusional ones? Hahahah. Another fact is that even the Default built-in HD has its flaws, it's not 100% Clientside, the manoevarability and ability to combo/be combo'd is inconsistant, and it gets hacked + cheated more easily. The default hit detection was made way before "serverside" even existed so how can you say it's not 100% clientside? The manoeverability is a part of the movement, which is not a part of the hit detection and the ability to combo and receive a combo is not inconsistant when you watch players who have skill spar. Are you trying to suggest that your clientside hit detection can not be "hacked + cheated" because if it can't then it's not clientside. Actually, i never liked serverside HD either. But i can see why most of the europeans, particularly Kill, are mad serverside was removed due to their advantages. I don't like both of them particularly, but lag will always screw someone over with every HD, so i don't know what HD will be right though i think default is currently the best one to use. Just a theory. Actually Mystic it's not a case of being selfish here. I played Classic for years when the server was in the US and I had as much of a 'disadvantage' as the US players do now. I didn't complain about it, I took it as a given and still held my own in events and sparring. I personally wouldn't care if the server was in the US again. In fact I actually asked Stefan to move it back a couple of months ago myself because people were complaining about it, but he said that Classic was taking up too much ram in recent times, I wonder why I do believe that if the players campaign for it to be moved it can be, but I guess that depends on how big of a demand there is.
|
|
|
The HD.
Jan 29, 2009 21:21:09 GMT -5
Post by Thor on Jan 29, 2009 21:21:09 GMT -5
The point of serverside hit detection was to ensure that the hit detection was secure and that laggers did not gain an unfair advantage like they do with clientside hit detection. It is very contradicting to say that this new hit detection was an attempt at fairness and then try to justify how it badly responds to laggers, because they are given a huge advantage with not being able to be hit and all. I don't understand how it "works both ways" either, I mean what ways? There's no down side to not lagging yourself now, you can't be hit and in events such as CTF this places you at a huge advantage. It's not a case of adjusting, laggers simply cannot be hit unless they are running towards you and even then, who the hell does that? No one. It works both ways due to the fact that if a player is lagging so badly to the point where you have to slash a second or 2 ahead of them in order to hit them, the very same will apply to their attempts to hit you. Hahaha okay, I wasn't aware that you were that in touch with what the players believed. So I guess the players that I am in contact with, the regulars of Classic that are now playing other servers, didn't decide that their most played server wasn't worth logging on now because of the change in the hit detection? The regulars of Classic didn't suddenly feel a change in the events that were keeping the server alive, and this wasn't down to the hit detection? Give me a break. Your release of the hit detection was in response to players pointing out that no one even bothered with releasing any content for the winter holidays and it was pretty obvious too. It was indeed an attempt at raising the playercount, and it failed horribly. Sure the server was dying before the release but the change of the hit detection, coupled with the way it effected the gameplay in a negative light, solidifed Classic's death. Oh, because you and and any friend of yours makes up the entire community don't they? Anyway, you could argue it was an attempt to increase playercount..... but as i said, in the long run, no hit detection is going to drastically increase playercount over night, regardless, i can't see any evidence to suggest it has failed horribly, if anything there have been more events in January than what were being hosted throughout December. Now this is just straight out bull. The average playercount did not drop "half in size" in 2005, because Classic was already under decline even before the NPC server came. In 2005 Classic had a pretty strong playerbase compared to now, and it even had a decent playerbase a couple of months ago although it was still declining even then. How you find this relevant at all however is beyond me, because it isn't at all. You are using pitiful excuses and reasoning. In 2005, playercount may have been going under a long decline, but there were often around 40 - 50 players online, a large proportion of them were the type of player who play Graal almost entirely for the sake of sparring and pking. A year later in 2006 it was around 30 players, there was still sparring and pking but less of this specific type of player. We had players 3 years ago, 2 years ago, 2007, 12 months ago, 6 months ago, and now we have next to none. You are not taking into account the actual community and because of this I'm not even sure you know what one is. The actual majority of the community stuck with Classic for quite a long time, yet you seem to think that the community are the old players that aren't returning to Graal at all. I found it hilarious that The UGCC knew about Bowling even before the players that played on the server every day, and then it all became obvious. You're not trying to cater for this community, in fact you took us for granted, and that came to the servers detriment. What you're actually doing is looking to please a small group of old players that don't play Graal and it has proved to be a complete waste of time, yet you seem to think we're the delusional ones? Hahahah. I did post about Bowling at the UGCC, but not to announce the release, but to ask for suggestions and ideas, at a forum where a large proportion of it's posters had actually played the old version of Bowling, just the same as when i had posted a thread there regarding Sardons. The default hit detection was made way before "serverside" even existed so how can you say it's not 100% clientside? The manoeverability is a part of the movement, which is not a part of the hit detection and the ability to combo and receive a combo is not inconsistant when you watch players who have skill spar. Are you trying to suggest that your clientside hit detection can not be "hacked + cheated" because if it can't then it's not clientside. The Default HD may not require an NPCserver, but it does require a Gserver inwhich to process hit data that is passed between players before their own clients determine if the player is within that hit field, at one time it was 100% clientside, it would check the ani/sprite and swordpower of other players to determine a hit, but this was changed. And i never said that the New HD was impossible to hack, just that the Default Movement + HD is alot easier, as that is what all of the trainers people are now using are made for, though a scripted HD does offer some security mechanisms.
|
|
|
The HD.
Jan 29, 2009 21:59:34 GMT -5
Post by Rufus on Jan 29, 2009 21:59:34 GMT -5
It works both ways due to the fact that if a player is lagging so badly to the point where you have to slash a second or 2 ahead of them in order to hit them, the very same will apply to their attempts to hit you. So basically you're just reinforcing my point here. It is not a case of adjusting, laggers simply cannot be hit unless they are running towards you. You do not need to hit the opposition ahead of the direction they're moving in if you're the one lagging however, so it is putting people at a huge disadvantage and encouraging the use of lag. Excellent, because we didn't have this problem enough already. Oh, because you and and any friend of yours makes up the entire community don't they? Anyway, you could argue it was an attempt to increase playercount..... but as i said, in the long run, no hit detection is going to drastically increase playercount over night, regardless, i can't see any evidence to suggest it has failed horribly, if anything there have been more events in January than what were being hosted throughout December. No, but are you trying to suggest that the bulk of the players that logged onto the server daily, the regulars, are not gone? I know what the deal is with the majority of the US guild (which was keeping the competative streak in events up by the way) and I have spoken to a lot of people who I don't actually usually speak to on top of that. The consensus is that your hit detection is sh it, and the sooner you actually realise it the better. Ibonic's hit detection increased the playercount pretty fast and that was serverside, so what are you talking about? It has been published all over these forums that the events aren't working or being received well but hell, they're hosting the events to save the server so IT MUST BE OKAY. In 2005, playercount may have been going under a long decline, but there were often around 40 - 50 players online, a large proportion of them were the type of player who play Graal almost entirely for the sake of sparring and pking. A year later in 2006 it was around 30 players, there was still sparring and pking but less of this specific type of player. Okay so we've gone from "half" to -10 within a year.. What about Silvercrank? He was a big PKer in 2006. Rob, Eillen, Jet, Clel Bubbles, man there was tons. Even with people like Trip trying to get #1 spar rank not so long ago, we had an active community in sparring and pking and this lasted for years with a serverside hit detection. Players got used to it and although it needed tweaking it was fair. Even recently we seen Ares, Squirt and other UN sparrers visiting and taking part in sparring with serverside detection. You're acting as though it was some huge killer, but really it was just something we all got used to. The newer players, which most of the current community are, had nothing to say about it because it was what they were used to. I did post about Bowling at the UGCC, but not to announce the release, but to ask for suggestions and ideas, at a forum where a large proportion of it's posters had actually played the old version of Bowling, just the same as when i had posted a thread there regarding Sardons. Why the hell does it matter what a group of old players think? What are they going to bring to a game like bowling that is different to what the current playerbase could suggest? They were never going to return for it and they never did, but that was your only form of advertising huh? You are trying to target the older players, it's as though you're almost doing it to be recognized, and again this only reinforces what I posted. You asked people who didn't care for input and ignorined what the actually community gave as input once it was released so yeah, you are taking the players for granted after all. The Default HD may not require an NPCserver, but it does require a Gserver inwhich to process hit data that is passed between players before their own clients determine if the player is within that hit field, at one time it was 100% clientside, it would check the ani/sprite and swordpower of other players to determine a hit, but this was changed. Incorrect. Use the default system and create an NPC that sets the players ani to sword and hit another player with it. It will do damage. It is the same with NPCs. An NPC with the sword ani will do damage if they have a swordpower set, and this includes the Graal editor which does not have a Gserver. And i never said that the New HD was impossible to hack, just that the Default Movement + HD is alot easier, as that is what all of the trainers people are now using are made for, though a scripted HD does offer some security mechanisms. You made a statement which tried to suggest that your hit detection was better than the default hit detection, which is also false and a pretty stupid statement to make. I do not see how your hit detection is any more safe from 'cheating' than the default without including serverside checks.
|
|
|
The HD.
Jan 29, 2009 22:03:09 GMT -5
Post by gladius on Jan 29, 2009 22:03:09 GMT -5
Couple of thoughts:
Everyone knew the Classic HD wasn't perfect beforehand. Many players from other servers didn't like it and thus didn't stay long. It's why many people wanted it changed.
But lets not kid ourselves. The playercount is december was literally next to nothing for much of the month. January has been a bit better, occasionally spiking into the teens. Don't associate the "number of events" and the two HDs. Now, with that said, if the new HD was better than the old one, more people would be inclined to come to classic and/or stay on classic. But since the new HD is arguably worse, people that might have come back/stay (normies here) don't want to. Even if there was an event going on, the new HD cripples several events for some people, and thus they literally have no reason to be on classic now that events aren't fun to them.
|
|
Kevin
Full Member
Posts: 157
|
The HD.
Jan 30, 2009 1:59:45 GMT -5
Post by Kevin on Jan 30, 2009 1:59:45 GMT -5
if using a clientside HD is all of a sudden acceptable 4 years down the line, why not just use default if it were an option to simply port it into the server, or start again from scratch with it, i'd probably do so, but neither method is an option, unless somebody wants to pay/waste money towards a totally seperate Dev server to the one Storm uses for his own custom systems he visions being built up from scratch itself? converting the 3 current dungeons to work with the default hit detection wouldn't have been worth making the rest of the original Graal the Adventure vastly easier to convert worth it?
|
|
|
The HD.
Jan 30, 2009 8:07:21 GMT -5
Post by laura on Jan 30, 2009 8:07:21 GMT -5
why do u people waste ur time talking about hd. the new one is there to stay.
|
|
|
The HD.
Jan 30, 2009 19:32:22 GMT -5
Post by Death Kazama on Jan 30, 2009 19:32:22 GMT -5
Long live the UGCC!!
|
|